August 09, 2009, 00:12

Allen makes the mistake of taking his own made-up views, and projecting them upon entire countries. Contrary to his belief, no one at all in Central or Eastern Europe is stuck in any “fight with Communism,” whether ridiculous or otherwise. However, all of Russia’s neighbours have to deal with a demanding, truculent, unpredictable country which has not itself come to terms with the fact that it is no longer the master of an empire. It is Russia’s present behaviour that ensures its relations with almost all its neighbours is bad. The connection with the past is not that Russia’s neighbours are oriented towards it, but that Russia is.

Russia’s neighbours are oriented towards the future – they want to be sure that Russia will not savage them again. A sign that it won’t would be if Russia itself disavows its Soviet past, like Germany has disavowed its Nazi past. But far from doing this, Russia justifies its past. The objectionable flavour of so many of its on-going actions and policies derives from this.

July 29, 2009, 11:30

This whole thing looks as a desperate move by some in Rummy's "new" Europe to keep relations between Russia and the EU strained. Frankly, I as Russian do not give a damn about OSCE and other different European talking shops where they kill their time by playing political games - rather pathetic and ridiculous games. If somebody in Poland, Baltic states and elsewhere in Europe want to waste their time on this nonsense, let them do it - what else is left to them? Their economies are crumbling, their people are unhappy and their governments are often better at pathetic rhetoric than handling economic problems at home. I mean, the world has changed, there has not been USSR for the past 17 years! Still, some people in central and eastern Europe are stuck in their ridiculous "fight with the Communism" like they still live in the 1980s and Mr. Reagan is still their star -)). Wake up, it's 2009, not 1989. Russia shouldn't even react to this kind of outdated rubbish.

July 14, 2009, 09:59

Alex, your post will be meaningful if you move on from generalities to specifics. Precisely what are “all those things that have been going on against Russia” in the Baltics? And precisely how do these nameless things exonerate those Russians who were the agents of Soviet Moscow’s policies that murdered, enslaved and deported well over 100,000 Baltic civilians, and terrorized and occupied millions of others in their own homelands from offering at the very least expressions of regret and sympathy for their horrible outrages?

You say that the current leaders of Russia had nothing to do with those crimes. The leaders of post-Nazi Germany had nothing to do with Nazi crimes, either, yet the world has rightly expected them to atone for Nazi crimes. As recently as a few months ago Chancellor Merkel visited a Nazi concentration camp with the American President, and solemnly re-dedicated herself to do everything possible to ensure that totalitarian atrocities could never again be repeated in her country. With which foreign leader has a Russian president ever visited any one of the vast GULAG slave labor camps and committed himself to doing everything possible to ensure that such crimes could never again be repeated?

If the horror of mass crimes against humanity, whether Nazi or Soviet, is “not important,” perhaps you could give an explanation of what is?

Insisting that the chief successor state of the Soviet Union offers the world an apology for Soviet crimes is neither annoying, assaulting nor stabbing Russia in the back. It is rather a matter both of common decency and of political necessity if Russia wants to have normal relations with the wider world.

July 13, 2009, 05:09

@ Marzipan,with all those things that have been going on . against russia from the west and the baltics .. you don't deserve an apology especially from the current leaders who had nothing to do with it .and from the common people . you leaders are taking any opportunity to annoy and assault us or stab us indirectly in the back .
those things you have mentioned are not important . not a little bit .

July 09, 2009, 09:01

As ever, CountCash is big on rhetoric, and extremely shy when it comes to verifiable facts. The reason he cannot present facts substantiating a supposed glorification of Nazis in Estonia is because there are none to present.

July 08, 2009, 21:13

Here we go with the Crimes mantra again, the usual Baltic Nazi mumbo jumbo, their usual, we and our western propaganda are the judges in their fantacy courts. They never have a judicial decree, but go on and on, thinking their lies will somehow surplant the truth.

And yes Estonia fought for the Nazis, killed for the Nazis, did holocaust for the Nazis, and now glorifies the Nazis and parades as Nazis. Nazis travel across Europe to meet there, to celevrate with them. It is Estonia's fundamental DNA. They just hide behind their usual western propaganda. They can't face the truth, so they always go on a diversionary blame Stalin mission. So Alex your head is perfectly clear on the issue.

July 08, 2009, 13:27

Alex, it isn’t an either-or proposition, ie, either you deal honestly with Soviet crimes, or you prevent the rise of Nazism. Both are important. But of the two, only one danger is presently real.

Russian propaganda notwithstanding, the only supposed “Nazis” around are young degenerates in a number of countries who in reality haven’t got a clue what Nazism really is, but they like to sport Nazi symbolism because of the air of decadence and rebellion that is associated with it. They are about as likely to mount some successful political revolution as pigs are likely to fly.There are no serious Nazi contenders for government today that I am aware of.

Please get it right out of your head that Estonia, for example, either has or had any Nazi sympathies. That is a lie that Stalin invented and that post-Soviet Russia has made its own. Nazism is thoroughly discredited, and I don’t believe anyone wants a bar of it. But Soviet ideology is still fondly embraced by Russia, and that country still point-blank refuses to look at its own Soviet history in the eye. It is this dangerous unreality, and the unpredictable behaviour that it is able to cause, that poses a real peril to Russia and its neighbours today, and it is this that must be attended to as a priority.

July 08, 2009, 11:05

@marzipan ...

it still is more important to tackle the things of today including Natoizm if you don't want to repeat the mistakes that have happened 60 years ago ...

July 08, 2009, 10:28

Alex writes, “There were more countries that have committed crimes under the red flag, but they are somehow considered victims now. We had Stalin a Georgian, Brezhnev a Ukrainian, Anastas Mikoyan an Armenian, but still it’s the Russians who have to apologise.”

That’s because (1) Stalin, Brezhnev and Mikoyan were not countries; (2) Russia proclaimed itself the primary successor state of the USSR and therefore it bears responsibility for everything Soviet more than anyone else; (3) Russia was also the creator and boss of the SU – if you have any doubt of that, just sing to yourself the words of the first two lines of the Soviet Anthem, the tune of which still serves as Russian National Anthem today. Politically this makes Soviet crimes Russia’s responsibility in a way that it never was Tajikistan’s, for instance; and (4) even though Georgia, Ukraine and Armenia were all victims of Soviet criminality, as was Russia itself, numerically the overwhelming majority of victimisers were Russians.

In his post, Ergatis thinks that apologising for crimes against humanity is the equivalent of Russia “humiliating itself in front of its enemies”. In this I believe he is exactly wrong. Russia’s humiliation is its refusal to deal with its history realistically. Bringing appropriate closure to it and reconciling with the neighbours it has so grievously abused would be its glory. One need simply contrast post-Nazi Germany’s credibility and status in the world with that of post-Soviet Russia to see the the truth of this demonstrated.

July 07, 2009, 15:28

@marzipan...

no actually that was after the sovjet union was disbanded ...
... yes the OSCE has writen that ....
but it still works selectively ... in favour of the west .... ignoring the faults of the west ...
by the way ... the were more countries that have commited "crimes" under the red flag ... but they are somehow considered victims now ... we had stalin a georgian ... brezhnev an ukrainian....Anastas Mikoyan an armenian .... but still it's the russians have to apologize ???

where is the logic ???

July 07, 2009, 10:48

To Ergatis: Isn’t it good that you don’t feel the same way about Germany? The Third Reich doesn’t exist any more and the Federal Republic of Germany is not the Third Reich. Yet I’m sure you expected post-Nazi Germany to have made amends for the crimes that Germans committed under the Nazi flag.Yet by some magical process that defies logic, somehow the same doesn’t seem to apply in the case of post-Soviet Russia in regard to crimes which Russians committed under the Soviet flag. Does anyone have a logical explanation for this?

July 07, 2009, 10:43

To Alex: Why do you assume that the OSCE declaration doesn’t also apply to the Netherlands when it plainly states, “The OSCE Parliamentary Assembly…expresses deep concern at the glorification of the totalitarian regimes, including the holding of public demonstrations glorifying the Nazi or Stalinist past, as well as the possible spread and strengthening of various extremist movements and groups, including neo-Nazis and skinheads...” Do you see a clause that excludes the Netherlands?

You wrote that “I’ve seen the discrimination with my own eyes and I remember it very well.” If you are referring back to the time of the Soviet occupation of the Baltics you most certainly would have seen discrimination, but you probably would not have thought of it as such. You would have seen three countries whose sovereignty had been taken away by force, whose every aspect was controlled from Moscow, whose people were held captive by a foreign army and terrorized by foreign secret police. Their languages and traditions were under assault, and they were being relentlessly swamped under waves of foreign colonist. The best jobs and housing and all real leadership positions were reserved for foreigners. Countries whose native people were forbidden to travel to their western regions except by special foreign permission, and who were unable to reside at all in some towns adjacent to their eastern border.

Under such circumstances, it would have been surprising indeed if you hadn’t noticed that the people resented this. However, at no time did this resentment in any way turn to violence.

In today’s Baltics there is job no discrimination on ethnic grounds. In Estonia there are lots of policemen of Russian ethnicity; if you think otherwise, you are simply mistaken – go there and check it out. However, all of them need to also be able to also speak Estonian. Could you imagine what use a policemen might be in the Netherlands, for example, if he couldn’t speak Dutch??

July 07, 2009, 01:12

The USSR does NOT exist anymore. Russia is NOT the USSR. Therefore Russia will NEVER NEVER NEVER apologize to members of the bloodstained murderous NATO. Russia will NEVER NEVER NEVER humiliate itself in front of its enemies. To see Russia humiliated, you have to win a war. You may try, IF you dare. Russia is waiting....

July 06, 2009, 13:21

@Marzipan... no they are not pointing directly .. but that's the western approach ... as i have said before... here in the netherlands are official political elements which glorify nazi germany .. and in some other countires too ... and Wilders an anti-muslim politician that just has won a seat in the european parlement.... you seem to have skipped this part.
Oh and by the way about discrimination of russian minority in the post sovjet european countires ... i use to live in Kalingrad ... every time i've traveled to south trough the baltics i've "enjoyed" your hospitality very much ... i've seen the discrimination with my own eyes and i remember it very well .. so don't tell me anymore of your fairy tales. I 've spoken the immigrants from belarus .. latvia.. litoven .. estonia .. ( here in the netherlands) .. and they have told me the same things .. that an ethnic russian wasn't even allowed to have a simple governmental job like a police officer .

I think that these.. including the nato wars should be OSCE's main priority ... they want to do something about some things that have happend 60 years ago so that it won't happen again..lol ... they should tackle the things that are happening now.... they are way more important ... or are they planning to wait another 60 years ... when all of the responsible for the chaos people are dead and pin it on the new generation ... some oraganization is that ...

Yes Russia is a member of OSCE but the russian members don't have much to say in the organization ... unless it's not targeted against the west.
The western politics are using the OSCE for their own gain ...

July 06, 2009, 09:03

Yep, CountCash, it’s all an unjust conspiracy. The regime of Stalin and his successors never murdered, enslaved or oppressed anyone, and was absolutely everything that Soviet propaganda always claimed it to be.

I agree with CountCash on another of his points as well (and this time the agreement is entirely genuine) – the Nazi regime was horrific and evil almost beyond comprehension, and will remain a stain on the history of mankind for as long as history itself will last. As will the crimes of Soviet Communism.

There is a third aspect of CountCash’s post which puzzles me, though. In it he addresses “Nazis”. I don’t know of any Nazis participating on this forum, nor even anyone with Nazi sympathies.

July 06, 2009, 08:51

I left out a very important little word in the last sentence of the third paragraph of my reply to Ergatis (July 5 2009, 07:54). That word is “not”. The sentence in question should read, “…whereas Russia, the primary successor state of the USSR, has NOT apologised for Soviet Moscow having actually operated that captivity.” Russia’s international image and substance will improve vastly beginning from the very day when that original sentence becomes correct as it stands, and no longer represents only a typographical error.

July 06, 2009, 05:14

No one can point to any Indictment or counts anywhere, that is the truth, and the Russophobes don't like it! As Stalin said to Winston Churcill, when Winston Churchill suggested shooting the Nazis without a trial. Stalin replied, we don't shoot people in the Soviet union without a trial. A trial by paid historians is not a trial at all. It is a perverse manipulation, Russia needs to make a careful choice as to whether it wants to be part of the perverse OSCE or not, I would suggest not. This whole affair show the approach of Europe and the west, where anything politically justified, is allowable, regardless of its illegality. The west is a politaical cesspit devoid of law.

Now for the Nazis, please read about the Nuremberg trials. Reading these will refresh your mind of the attrocities commited by the Nazis, the throwing of chidren screaming into ovens, the making of table lamps from the skin of the dead...... The deeds were appaling, truly and absolutely appaling. only an idiot could ever equate this with any thing else on earth. The whole facts are captured in a trial with relevent law, indictments and judgements. The Nazi crimes were tried, the evidence tested and clear, the outcome clear. Please take a few minutes to look at it! There is no comparison!

July 05, 2009, 08:52

To Alex:

(1) OSCE is not pointing the finger at Russia. Please read the extract of the Resolution that I posted, or better yet, read the full text on the OSCE website. Russia is not mentioned. The central point of the Resolution is, “The OSCE Parliamentary Assembly reconfirms its united stand against all totalitarian rule from whatever ideological background; Expresses deep concern at the glorification of the totalitarian regimes, including the holding of public demonstrations glorifying the Nazi or Stalinist past, as well as the possible spread and strengthening of various extremist movements and groups, including neo-Nazis and skinheads; Calls upon participating States to pursue policies against xenophobia and aggressive nationalism and take more effective measures to combat these phenomena.”

(2) Whether NATO’s military actions are legal or not is a separate question. However, they are not expressions of totalitarianism, which is the subject of the OSCE resolution.

(3) The OSCE is financed by its 56 members. Russia is also a member, along with 26 other countries that are not Western.

(4) There are some non-European post-Soviet countries in which I believe Russians are in genuine physical danger. I do not know whether or not the OSCE has made comments regarding this. There are some other post-Soviet countries where Russians live in complete peace and security, and enjoy a higher standard of living than in Russia itself. For political reasons, Moscow chooses to complain about these, and not the first group. OSCE investigations have never uncovered any human rights violations substance to its complaints.

(5) Stalin was a Georgian, and Hitler was an Austrian. But it is Russians and Germans respectively that carried out their criminal policies, and it is post-Nazi Germany and post-Soviet Russia that need to effect reconciliation in regard to these. Germany has done this, Russia has not.

July 05, 2009, 08:07

CountCash asks, “Please indicate the competent court with full reference to the judgement, where it has been decided that Stalinism committed: 1. Genocide, 2. Violations of human rights, 3. War Crimes, 4. Crimes against humanity.”

Certainly no one can point to any court in Russia, because Russia has point-blank refused to deal with its Soviet-era criminality. Perhaps the millions who were killed by the Soviet regime, and the many more millions who were enslaved in the GULAG, which was the most extensive network of concentration camps the world has ever known, were killed and enslaved by Irish leprechauns instead – though somehow I doubt it. Nor can anyone point to any Nuremberg-style trials of Russians because Stalin, who helped set up the Nuremberg process, would obviously not empower it to sit in judgment of himself.

However, anyone at all can point to trainloads of history books detailing Soviet crimes against humanity including murders, tortures, enslavements, deportations, occupation of foreign countries, illegal colonization of occupied lands, and so forth. If this is something you are in denial of, then I can no more help you than I could help a Holocaust denier. For meaningful exchange of views to happen, a certain level of grasp of reality needs first to be present.
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July 05, 2009, 07:54

Further to Ergatis, who wrote, “If Stalin was so bad and USA was so good then why USA made a deal with Stalin in Yalta very much similar to the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement?”

I don’t believe I have ever expressed a judgment on the goodness of the US. Where people have tried to equate the actions of the USSR with those of the USA I have pointed out the differences, though. Such differences are matters of fact, not matters of subjective moral judgment.

As for Yalta, if you have read enough of my posts you will have come across statements I have made that the US had no right whatsoever to sell the Baltic countries into Soviet slavery. You may have also read further statements I have made to the effect that the US has formally apologised to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for consigning them to Soviet captivity, whereas Russia, the primary successor state of the USSR, has apologised for Soviet Moscow having actually operated that captivity.

Whatever aspects of the Yalta agreement were wrong do not even begin to make any illegal aspects of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact right, so it is pointless to try to hide the one behind the other.